Bernd Richard Deutsch: interview about new Goethe-inspired Urworte

(January 2025)

In his poem Urworte. Orphisch (Orphic Primal Words), Goethe names five forces that determine human life: Daimon, Tyche (the accidental), Eros (love), Ananke (necessity) and Elpis (hope). What appealed to you about setting these sayings with their wisdom of age to music?

The ‘Urworte’ are a kind of ‘song of destiny’ for me. For a long time I had the idea of writing a piece about the elemental forces that determine our lives. While reading a book about the actor Oskar Werner, for whom the first poem had a special meaning, I came across this cycle and began to study it intensively. I found that the ideas I wanted to express were formulated here in an exemplary way.

The Goethe scholar Karl Otto Conrady said of this poem that it is the ‘transformation of the old for the present’ – addressing questions that the ancient philosophers had already raised, in words that have passed through Enlightenment individualism. What do you see as the ‘present’ in the ‘primal words’?

There is a strong contrast between the ancient and modern concept of fate. In Greek mythology one often gets the impression that people are more or less helplessly at the mercy of the gods. Let us think of Oedipus: although everything was done to counteract the oracle's pronouncement, everything happened exactly as predicted. In other words, it is futile to oppose one's fate, because there are forces that tower above us and which we cannot escape. The modern, enlightened way of thinking, on the other hand, is strongly focussed on the individual and the opportunities for development: you take your destiny into your own hands, and this attitude has arguably also led to great advances in civilisation and to revolutionary changes. However, the last word has not yet been spoken and there is always the danger of failing because of one's own hubris.

Do you see these five stanzas as a cycle of life?

Yes, because a special feature of these poems is that the five stanzas cover and describe the entire life span of a person: from childhood, youth, early and middle adulthood to old age.

The addition of the ‘Orphic’ in Goethe's title refers to the figure of Orpheus. However, he does not appear here as a figure. In ancient times, ‘Orphic poetry’ was the term used to describe certain texts - allegedly written by Orpheus - that dealt with the teaching of wisdom and the creation of the world. The poet took over a cultic function with the artist as seer. What do you think of this role?

I don't know whether the artist is a seer, but he or she is certainly a kind of medium, or at least should be. I don't believe that it is the task of art to ‘analyse’ superficially or to comment on the present in the sense of topics of everyday politics. Art is probably strongest where it reflects archetypal and timeless phenomena and aspects of life.

Your work begins with a ‘big bang’. What is this daimon that drives us?

The concept of the daimon was extremely important to Goethe. The conversations with his confidant Eckermann bear witness to this. It is difficult to clearly define the concept behind it; it can probably only be circumscribed. It is a force that drives people, character, talent, that inner essence or charisma that is elusive and yet tangibly present. As an example, Goethe repeatedly referred to Napoleon, whom he met personally and who exerted a special fascination on those around him. The daimonic is to be seen as neutral. Goethe writes: “The daimon here means the necessary, limited individuality of the person that is immediately expressed at birth, the characteristic that distinguishes the individual from every other person, no matter how similar they are”. Ultimately, for Goethe as a poet, the daimon is probably above all the force that drives an artist creatively and makes him or her unique. Incidentally, the Latin equivalent of the Greek daimon is ‘genius’.

Goethe’s poem is also about the tossing and turning of people between freedom and compulsion. Is that also your topic?

That is certainly a central topic of the work. It is about this question: does freedom exist, and if so, what does it consist of? The first two poems, Daimon and Tyche, describe an important pair of opposites. Heraclitus already knew that “a man's character is his destiny”. This idea obviously underlies the Daimon poem. Goethe uses the image of the constellation of stars at the moment of birth as a symbol of something that unalterably characterises a person. Today we would define this as genetic disposition.

The pair of opposites Daimon and Tyche express a contrast between two principles that was the subject of lively debate in the 20th century: genetics versus environmental influences. Which of these is more important for humans has been and continues to be the subject of debate: on the one hand, genes are responsible for everything, and on the other, the social environment. To paraphrase Goethe, we could say that both are decisive.

Character may be our destiny (determined by genetics), but the environmental influences, the random events in our childhood and youth, also have a significant influence on our development. The verse “Und handelst wohl so wie ein anderer handelt” (“And you must certainly act just as another acts”) is also interesting. Adaptation is a key factor in human socialisation. However, a lot of individuality can be lost as a result.

And what role does love play in this?

Goethe writes: “This includes everything that one can think of, from the most quiet affection to the most passionate frenzy”. A central sentence in the Tyche poem reads: “Die Lampe harrt der Flamme, die entzündet” (“The lamp awaits the flame that will ignite it”). For me, this is one of the most important thoughts in the entire cycle. No other phrase is repeated and musically illuminated so often in my composition.

It is interesting that Goethe's Eros poem immediately follows it. The first sentence in it (“Die bleibt nicht aus!” – “And there she is”) is ambiguous: on the one hand it refers to the heading ‘Love’, on the other hand it is the continuation of the Tyche poem and thus also refers to the ‘flame that ignites’. Eros and flame are therefore identical and prove to be a central driving force, not only in the realm of love, but also in every creative activity.

Ananke stands in opposition to this. In Greek mythology, she is the personification of fate in the sense of an external compulsion. So once again it is about environmental influences, but this time limiting and restricting ones, which become more and more noticeable with increasing age (in contrast to Tyche, the goddess of - fortunate - chance). Ananke can even bring about that ‘the most beloved is exiled from the heart’, and our claimed freedom ultimately proves to be an illusion.

You write for a large orchestra and a large choir. How did this idea of soundscape come about?

In my opinion, these texts call for a large scoring. I could not imagine setting them to music with solo voices, nor with a reduced instrumental line-up, or as a song. This is certainly due to the meaning and universal validity of the poems, but also to the fact that although Goethe addresses a ‘you’, he ultimately means all people.

At the end there is hope. Goethe did not want to resign himself to a transient existence. For him, the core of individuality was indestructible. What does hope symbolise for you?

Elpis is an addition by Goethe. It does not appear in Orphic poetry, and one could assume that it did not necessarily correspond to the ancient concept of fate. And yet hope also has something fateful about it: it is indestructible and, like Daimon, Tyche and Eros, a force that drives us. It also ‘lifts’ and ‘inspires’ us. The last sentence “Ein Flügelschlag - und hinter uns Äonen” (“A wing flap - and behind us lie the eons”) refers on the one hand to immortality, and on the other to the universality of the five principles depicted across the ages.

Interviewed by Kerstin Schüssler-Bach

Bernd Richard Deutsch
Urworte (2022/24) 50‘
for choir and orchestra
Text: Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (Ger)
Commissioned by Cleveland Orchestra and Norddeutscher Rundfunk

7 February 2025 (world premiere)
Visions Festival
Elbephilharmonie, Hamburg
MDR-Rundfunkchor / NDR Vokalensemble /
NDR Elbphilharmonie Orchester /
Alan Gilbert

>  Further information on Work: Urworte

Photo: Bernd Richard Deutsch (© Wolf-Dieter Grabner)

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